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He identified himself as a Ukrainian. We read it from his data, filled in by himself. And that's all. Why do we need the opinions of modern scientists about his nationality, especially after centuries of appropriation of Ukrainian culture by the Russians? Why can a Russian administrator deny the valid rules of Wikipedia? And if it is so important for him to talk about citizenship (not nationality!) he can write "Ukrainian artist who was of Ukrainian and Polish origin and was a citizen of the Russian Empire, Ukraine and the Soviet Union", but not "Russian artist". However, I do not know of any examples where citizenship indicates the identification of a person. Belcher.Jr (talk) 10:24, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In Wikipedia we are using secondary sources Marcelus (talk) 10:37, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I understand, but we must define a person's nationality first of all in terms of self-identification. Does it come from the Wikipedia rules? Belcher.Jr (talk) 10:48, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Let me repeat again: we are using secondary sources, first and foremost. Marcelus (talk) 11:02, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
FYI I am Dutch. At this moment, Ukrainian trolls escalated the situation to the point that every user in good standing who sees their edits just reverts them on sight. Ymblanter (talk) 10:42, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Your native language is Russian. Isn't it? Belcher.Jr (talk) 10:47, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, so what? The mothertongue of half of your compatriots is Russian. Ymblanter (talk) 10:49, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Your language shows your origin and therefore your bias towards the subject of discussion. Even in 2021, there were only 18% of them. Most of them are Russians. Belcher.Jr (talk) 10:55, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And I ask you to refrain from labeling me as a troll. Belcher.Jr (talk) 10:51, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Do you see this t/p? Every week or two someone demands the change of Malewicz's nationality to Ukrainian, it's always answered the same way: provide sources, show its not a fringe view. Do you really think that one more post about the same topic will change anything? I'm not calling you a troll, but I understand why some may think that such a behaviour is close to trolling. Marcelus (talk) 10:53, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Especially if all edits of the user are on this page. Ymblanter (talk) 10:57, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Your sources pretty much say that Ukraine considers Malevich to be a Ukrainian artist (and insists he is spelled as Malevych). We know that. The Ukrainian Wikipedia understandably states this as well. You are also not the first person to make this argument. Ymblanter (talk) 11:18, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is not directed at you. It’s answer for Marcellus. You have a political bias and a clear conflict of interest. therefore, discussing this topic with you is not interesting to me and is contradictory from the point of view of Wikipedia's rules. And you also offended me Belcher.Jr (talk) 11:22, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with @Ymblanter, and see no reason to exclude his voice from the dicussion Marcelus (talk) 12:23, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So, do I understand correctly that you ignore my sources and arguments, and agree with his subjective statements and manipulations, and also do not see the bias and political involvement of this user, which can affect the outcome of the discussion? Belcher.Jr (talk) 13:23, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with this: Your sources pretty much say that Ukraine considers Malevich to be a Ukrainian artist (and insists he is spelled as Malevych). We know that. The Ukrainian Wikipedia understandably states this as well. You are also not the first person to make this argument.Marcelus (talk) 13:38, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, can we then put it on the page that he identified himself as a Ukrainian and was born in Ukraine, but he also had citizenship of the Russian Empire and lived during the Posi occupation, so he is also considered Russian. Isn't this a fair interpretation given the sources and history, and not the manipulations of the Russian PSYOP? Belcher.Jr (talk) 13:46, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is no Russian manipulation; I think the article is good as it is. Marcelus (talk) 14:02, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I heard you. I am sorry that I and my sources could not convince you. Perhaps it will take time for the truth to prevail and everything to fall into place. Belcher.Jr (talk) 14:18, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The same can be said if you substitute "Ukraine" with "Russia" in your reply. So why do russian sources have priority over Ukrainian ones? UApatriot69 (talk) 11:55, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Btw Kyiv Post 2023 is a pure propaganda outlet. All reasonable journalists left it in 2021.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:19, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Are there authoritative sources for such a claim? Are these your subjective politically engaged statements? Belcher.Jr (talk) 11:26, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The majority of which went on to create the Kyiv Independent. I think you’ll be surprised to see their take on this issue. You yourself have confirmed that they are credible.
Do we actually have a citation for the infobox claim that between 1917 and 1922 he was a Ukrainian national? If I read the article, it does not seem to say that he has been in Ukraine during this period. Immight be wrong on this one though and I do not currently have access to good literature.--Ymblanter (talk) 01:09, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, we don't. He wasn't in Ukraine, so he had no way to get the UNR citizenship, even if it at least had a citizenship law. UA0Volodymyr (talk) 17:02, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 February 2024[edit]
This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
@Ymblanter to avoid reverting, I wanted to clarify why we should use "Kyiv" in the lead: 1) it is the primary spelling of the linked article, a romanized Ukrainian version that has been officially adopted by the United States Board on Geographic Names 2) spelling of "Kiev" is, as I am sure you know, Soviet-era Russian and has become a reflection of Russia's imperialism and colonialism. Ppt91talk 16:13, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The community consensus (see Talk:Kyiv) is to use Kyiv for everything after 1991, and Kiev for everything before, but definitely for everything pre-1918. Ymblanter (talk) 16:37, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ymblanter Can you please point me to the specific discussion where these historical distinctions have been explicitly established with community consensus? This only affirms using the preferred spelling of Kyiv for the city article. Thanks. Ppt91talk 17:55, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ymblanter I am afraid this does not resolve the issue. The discussion does not mention a specific rule of definitely for everything pre-1918 at all.
Rather, the consensus is to use Kiev for unambiguously historical topics, such as when referencing historical events like the 1920 "Kiev offensive", which makes sense and doing otherwise could be construed as anachronistic. Even in that article, however, the spelling of "Kiev" in the lead is followed by "(Kyiv)" in brackets.
Also worth noting is that the article about Malevich is a biography and we are linking a city (geographical location) where he was born, rather than an historical event, and some context for using "Kiev" needs to be provided. Two good examples are Mikhail Bulgakov (Kiev, Kiev Governorate of the Russian Empire) and Alexander Vertinsky (Kiev (now Kyiv, Ukraine)). I believe we should follow either of these two conventions for historical accuracy. Otherwise, it's just arbitrary spelling. Ppt91talk 19:12, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Concerning your second point, the infobox says "Kiev <...>, now Kyiv, Ukraine". As far as I am concerned this is fully sufficient. Concerning the first point, I do not see your argument. If 1920 is unambiguously historical, everything pre-1920 is unambiguously historical as well. Malevich was born in Kiev, not in Kyiv, and the article reflects this. Ymblanter (talk) 19:18, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ymblanter I must have missed that this information was included in the infobox, my bad. I think that works perfectly fine. On a related note, the article certainly needs a lot of editing and citations seem to be all over the place. I've started rewriting some of the stuff I thought was most urgent and I'd be happy to collaborate on gradually improving the rest of the article over the next several months (being realistic with my IRL commitments, as I am on a self-imposed semi-wikibreak), if that is something you'd be interested in. Malevich's work might not at the core of my research, but is definitely a critical reference point and he's also somewhat of a personal passion project. Ppt91talk 20:15, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, because the article was for many years under constant attack of driveby users who were only interested in stating that Malevich was Ukrainian and he had no relation to Russian whatsoever. This is why references had to be added. The article now is under indefinite protection, but if we remove these references and it gets unprotected sometime the same users would be quickly back. Ymblanter (talk) 20:19, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I figured that was a big part of the problem, also because of how politically charged this issue is right now. I am sure we can keep a good deal of current citations and only replace those for which more appropriate WP:RS can be found. Either way, it'd be great to work on improving it, even if that process takes a while. Ppt91talk 20:33, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes! He always identified himself as Ukrainian and calling him "russian" is just rude and it sounds uneducated. Diana.demelko (talk) 03:52, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
He saw and identified himself as a Ukrainian.(He talked about it himself) He saw himself as Ukrainian and he was born in the territory of Ukraine now. Russia is changing historical facts and it is not ok just to take lies as it is. You will be learning false facts because of this and become more uneducated instead of educating yourself as you expect from Wiki. It would be better for everyone if it was changed. Diana.demelko (talk) 04:01, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, it would only be better for Ukrainian propaganda. For everybody else this would be disinformation and cultural appropriation. Ymblanter (talk) 07:23, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How is knowing truth is being disinformation?How can stating TRUE facts can play into propaganda? Kazimir stated he was Ukrainian not even Polish so why call him Russian if he had nothing to do with them by blood and mentality? I would recommend reading about propaganda and especially how Russia is using it. A person who knows what propaganda means and who has a little bit of basic knowledge would know that telling FACTS can not be bad not propaganda. It's like stating Shakespeare is a USA artist. Historical facts are not propaganda while lying about someone being of a different nationality helps propaganda (Russian propaganda in this case). Lying to make someone else's culture "better" that is propaganda. This website is for knowledge and facts. Diana.demelko (talk) 20:24, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Diana.demelko, I think we all know how propaganda works. I haven't looked at the article or its sourcing, but if you are going to argue this point you will need to present actual evidence. You can say he saw himself as Ukrainian, but Wikipedia needs sourcing. Drmies (talk) 20:26, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Now that I read through it, and read a few of the sources, I think that the article represents the matter and the consensus pretty fairly. So the Met went back and forth on Aivazovsky and now has something like what our article has; the Stedelijk went a step further with “born in Ukraine to parents of Polish origin", but that's actually already in the lead. So, no, I see no reason to change what we have. What all this makes clear of course is that the 19th-c disease of nationalism still rages, but that's not something we're going to fix on this talk page. Ymblanter, let's go to Amsterdam, you and me, and we'll see just how much Malevich is in the Stedelijk. We'll rent bikes and eat fries too, of course. Drmies (talk) 20:35, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, I am in the Stedelijk on a regular basis, last time I have been there was last year. Ymblanter (talk) 20:54, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
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